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25 July 2007 @ 04:10 am
OMG! Voldemort is Harry's father and Hermoine is his sister!!!  

Wait, wait, when did Lupin and Tonks die? I mean, obviously it was during the big battle when people were dying right and left, but somehow i missed the exact moment and was a little surprised, though not exactly shocked, when Lupin was among those summoned back from the dead. I'd long since become inured to the whole OMG! a character just died! thing, though not even noticing the event as it occurred may have been taking that a bit too far :) I flipped back through the pages and found a reference to Tonk wanting to find him and being told her was in a duel with Dolohov (you bad person you! ;) but that was it.

Whose kid was Victorie supposed to be? One of the Weasleys clearly, but which? I wonder who Draco married? And did it mention what jobs anyone had except for Neville? I seem to remember lots of people theorizing the Harry would become the Defense Against the Dark Arts Prof, but that at least doesn't seem to have been the case. The whole addendum chapter seemed a little silly and weak to me. And it's probably causing some kind of shipper armageddon amongst the fandom even as i type :)

I remember that at the end of whichever book had the prophecy that i thought Neville was probably going to play a key role in the defeat of Voldemort despite the fact that he wasn't the one who was singled out by Voldemort. However i didn't remember that, or even that the prophecy could have been about him, or really anything about the prophecy at all, until Neville actually sliced the head off the snake, at which point some part of my brain said "ha! told you so!" and the rest of my brain went "huh? told who what?" and everything paused a second while i sorted that out.

Oh yeah, and when whoever it was got their ear blasted off by Snape i started leaning towards the "he's a good guy" theory again. I did figure that Dumbledore had planned to have Snape kill him if that was the case, but i'm not sure what i think of the whole "well he was going to die in a year anyways" thing. And the Snape being obsessed with Lily thing wasn't supposed to be a shock was it? Didn't we get told about that a book or two ago at least? Or was i reading more into vague hints than i was supposed to be?

The end when it came was rather... sudden. Especially the cheering hordes immediately thereafter. At least adding a sentence or two _before_ everyone starts celebrating about the whole enemy army that was cohabiting the area with them fleeing in panic would have been nice. I did have a moment of "that's _it_??!?"

I kept getting very confused about the number of Horcruxes they needed to hunt down. I mean, i knew it was seven, but i kept getting confused about whether his first body counted as one, or if his second did, and for awhile was sure that they needed to find _two_ more after the goblet, not counting the snake.

I'm sure i'll come up with some more thoughts later, especially after reading everyone else's posts, but that's it for now.


Oh yeah, and there must have been some dialogue about Dumbledore and Malfoy and wands right before Dumbledore got killed to explain the Elder wand choosing him, right? I have a vague sense there might have been, but i'm not sure if that's a real half-memory or my brain struggling to make it make sense.

And you know, it's kind of funny how the best wand ever that's supposed to make you undefeatable in a duel keeps getting passed around by the owner getting defeated in duels... Especially in cases like Dumbledore and his erstwhile friend, when the two of them were supposed to be very evenly matched before the uber-wand was taken into account.
nonseqmenagerie on July 25th, 2007 12:27 pm (UTC)
There wasn't an explicit "death scene" for Lupin and Tonks - Lupin is presumably killed in his duel, and Tonks dies in the battle. But Hedwig, Dobby, Fred, Snape, etc. all had specific death scenes. I did the same thing - saw the list and then flipped back trying to figure out where I had missed that. Victorie is Bill and Fleur's child. And it didn't specifically say what jobs anyone had other than Neville... I know Harry had wanted to be an auror, but in 19 years, he may have had a change of heart. Leaves it a bit open-ended.

I hear the epilogue was written a long time ago, which could account for some of the vagueness - she knew what Neville was going to do and who was going to wind up with whom, but hadn't fleshed things out much. And by the end of the book, didn't have or didn't want to spend the time adding more information.

Ollivander explained about wands - how if a wizard is defeated in battle, the wand will respond to whomever defeated the wizard. So, in the case of Dumbledore, my guess is that Malfoy bringing him to where he was ready to tell Snape to fulfill that killing him promise counts as defeating him, even if Snape is the one that killed him.

My understanding (based on my admittedly fast reading) is that the Elder Wand has a violent history - not necessarily one where everyone had legitimate duels, but the previous owners had died violently.

Horcruxes: Harry, ring, locket, snake, diary, goblet, diadem. I think I kept getting confused because the diary was a good 5-6 books ago :)
DonAithnendonaithnen on July 25th, 2007 03:13 pm (UTC)
Yeah, the mechanics of trading ownership were made clear, what wasn't made clear was how that applied to dumbledore and draco, so i'm wondering if there was some indication during that scene to indicate that was the case that will be obvious in retrospect.

Harry wasn't one of the seven because he was an accident. I think it was supposed to be that his original body still had some of his soul in it, so they mean splitting seven ways, not seven horcruxes, but that kind of makes me wonder why he didn't just keel over once all the repositories of his soul were destroyed. If you get brought back to life through a horcrux does a new piece of soul automatically get split off for the new body?
Kimchalgaryn on July 25th, 2007 03:52 pm (UTC)
Draco disarmed Dumbledore using Expelliarmus (or however you spell it) before they stood around talking for ages about whether Draco was ever going to get around to actually killing Dumbledore. That's why is was such a leisurely conversation...because Dumbledore didn't have a wand (it had fallen over the edge of the tower wall).
Sister Atom Bomb of Courteous Debateakiko on July 25th, 2007 05:46 pm (UTC)
There were 6 horcruxes, plus Harry-the-accidental-one.

I think when a horcrux is destroyed, the bit of 'soul' in it is destroyed as well. Should the actual soul be expelled and horcruxes remain, there's probably some magic to transfer soul to the body, sort of like the nine lives idea. A "use once and burn" type of thing. He didn't keel over because he still had some soul left.

I thought the girl-child was called Victoire. I assumed it was French, and therefore Fleur's.
DonAithnendonaithnen on July 25th, 2007 07:12 pm (UTC)
So which did he use when coming back to life in book...5? The snake? But the snake's still around and still counts as a Horcrux in book 7...? *confused*
Kirin: Gankutsuou-SDcountkirinn on July 25th, 2007 09:08 pm (UTC)
I didn't get the impression that they actually get "used up" like that. It seems that while any of them are around, you can't destroy him by killing his body... in that case his own "soul shard" just sticks around in non- or semi-corporeal form. So you have to get all the other bits first and then his personal remaining bit last. Why? Who knows, it's weird-ass dark magic.
Sister Atom Bomb of Courteous Debateakiko on July 26th, 2007 12:48 pm (UTC)
I thought the book 4/5 thing was to do with weird dark magic involving blood. That's why he needed Harry.
Kirin: Gankutsuou-SDcountkirinn on July 26th, 2007 02:14 pm (UTC)
Well, yeah, but I thought that whole ritual was just about making him a complete body, since the horcrux strategy doesn't stop your body from being destroyed, just your remaining soul fragment. And not having a body was proving kind of inconvenient.
DonAithnendonaithnen on July 27th, 2007 08:10 pm (UTC)
So what happened to his original body? It just got avra kedavraed(sp) right, it didn't get disintegrated or anything did it?
owldragon on July 31st, 2007 03:46 pm (UTC)
I don't think it's ever mentioned. Presumably the body survived long enough for it to be identified so everybody knew that Voldemort was dead, but I wouldn't be surprised if the body was destroyed just to be on the safe side. All that's mentioned in the book is that the part of his soul that was in his body got stuck wandering around as a nearly powerless shade, which is how we see him in the first book - only able to make a face on the back of the head of one of his few remaining fanatical followers. The way I understood it was that the part of his soul that used a body could never be destroyed or made to pass on unless all the anchors holding it in the world (the phylacteries horcruxes) were destroyed; you just couldn't pin it down. So first you had to get all the bits that were stuck in physical objects, because those were vulnerable.
Sarisa Aeryn: eyedannonsarisa on July 25th, 2007 01:35 pm (UTC)
In regards to the Elder Wand, always keep this in mind:

No matter how powerful the wizard, a dagger between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp their style.

-paraphrased somewhat from Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos novels.

DonAithnendonaithnen on July 25th, 2007 03:10 pm (UTC)
Yeah, we have the explicit example of the first change in ownership (whether mythologized or not) of the first owner getting his throat cut. However we also have one explicit example of a guy with the wand that was supposed to let him win any duel getting his ass handed to him in an up-front duel.

Plus how did dumbledore's "friend" get it? The implication that i got from the flashes of scenes was of him taking up a brief career as a cat burgler, but i'd have to reread that section. So it would seem "grab it and run" counts as "defeating the owner" as well.
Kimchalgaryn on July 25th, 2007 03:57 pm (UTC)
The thief did stun Gregorovich when he came upon the burglary, so that would count as more of a direct defeat than just stealing it.
DonAithnendonaithnen on July 25th, 2007 07:44 pm (UTC)
Certainly as much as sneaking in during the night and cutting the owners throat i guess :)
Ambermaggiedacatt on July 25th, 2007 04:00 pm (UTC)
I think cat-burglaring is outwitting the owner. The wand chooses whether or not it counts. :)
DonAithnendonaithnen on July 25th, 2007 07:32 pm (UTC)
I think the wand is a right bastard and decides such things on a whim :)

Also, is it omnipotent, or did it only know about Harry beating Draco because Harry announced doing so in front of it and no one bothered to contradict him? :)
Kirinkirinn on July 25th, 2007 05:24 pm (UTC)
Yeah, Lupin and Tonks both died completely off-screen; the first we know of it is when they show up among the bodies in the great hall during the lull in the battle. Pretty random and anti-climactic, but that crap happens in a war, so eh.

Let's see, other commenters also covered Victorie and the wand and horcruxes (horcrucies? horcri? whatever). The epilogue was indeed kinda lame. Though I always snigger about "Scorpius" whenever I think of it.

I think at the very end of the battle, the idea was that the Dark forces already doing worse than before because of the addition of the centaurs and some other reinforcements on the good guys' side that I've forgotten but I think showed up of townsfolk or something. So they may already have been faltering, and then the death of Voldy plus a few other leaders set them to route immediately. I presume any full Death Eaters with the Dark Mark would probably feel it immediately when Voldy bit it and presume it was high time to bugger off.

Oh, also, I think it did say somewhere that Dumbledore did in fact have a definite edge over Grindelwald in raw magic talent. It is still kind of curious that the uber-wand didn't help out enough, though. But I suppose we never really got a full accounting of that battle, so maybe there were other factors in play. Ripe for fanfic material, I guess. (Er, no, scratch that, the obvious fanfic reason would be that G had the hots for D and let him win, which would be kind of lame.)
DonAithnendonaithnen on July 25th, 2007 07:35 pm (UTC)
Okay, i remember the bodies lying about bit, i must have missed the specific reference to them or something. Lots of people are dead, yeah lets move on :)

The centaurs and other reinforcements showing up bit was also handled rather briefly and sloppily. And even if the death eaters were already having trouble i still think a brief statement that with Voldemort's death they all turned and ran away, or something to that effect, would have been rather timely immediately after he died.

They do mention it shortly thereafter after going on about how everyone is cheering and celebrating, but by that point it's lost its impact.
DonAithnendonaithnen on July 25th, 2007 07:37 pm (UTC)
and yeah, i could forsee a lot of Dumbledore/Grindelwald slash forthcoming given how they were presented :) And their little duel, aka "Dumbledore and Grindelwald decide to get together and see who can use their wand better" certainly seems like a good setup for it :)