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21 December 2003 @ 02:44 am
One more thing  
Hey Kallah, if you want a spoiler free answer to your question about Eowyn/Faramir in the movie, look in the cut below.

No :)

There is zero significant Eowyn/Faramir. The only appeared together in one scene that i noticed, and that was just for a few seconds while they were standing next to each other and both looking at something else. I probably wouldn't even have noticed it if i hadn't been keeping an eye out for such things.

There are rumors that it might be dealt with in the extended edition, but as of yet those are just rumors.

Why don't you like Eowyn/Faramir anyways?
Current Mood: curiouscurious
Kallahkallah on December 21st, 2003 07:15 am (UTC)
It's really stupid canon, that's why. It makes absolutely no sense.
Sister Atom Bomb of Courteous Debateakiko on December 24th, 2003 10:54 am (UTC)
Please elaborate. I'm genuinely curious as to why you feel this way.

Then again, I'm a huge canon weenie in this regard. You know, Aragorn & Arwen (whose portrayal in the film, especially the third one, annoyed me. "Arwen is dying." WTF??), Eowyn & Faramir, Legolas & Gimli.
Kallahkallah on December 24th, 2003 11:29 am (UTC)

Because she throws aside her entire life for some dipshit she doesn't even know.

Because her dialogue makes no sense in context of anything that's been written before, in context of the current events, or in context of anything else she's said, or even in and of itself. (Her responses don't seem to have anything to do with anything Faramir says. At all.)

Because the entire thing has so little to do with Eowyn as previously written that my only conclusions are either a) he's ripped her personality out by the roots and stuck someone else's in, or b) the real Eowyn found a sympathetic fellow-traveler and escaped back out as Dernhelm.

Sister Atom Bomb of Courteous Debateakiko on December 24th, 2003 12:42 pm (UTC)
(OFFS, I had a long response, submitted it, and got an error: expired cookie, and the comment was gone. *grr*)

She leaves Rohan (against her King's order, btw, which some people find much like deserting) to find death in battle and thereby win renown. [NB: When Theoden takes the Riders and leaves her in charge, he's not sure if any of them will survive, much less win the war, and she is left to defend Edoras/Dunharrow as long as she can.] So she gets there, kills the Witch-King, and becomes renowned for that ("The Lady of the Shield Arm"). Then she has to be called back from under the spell of the Black Breath and sulks in the Houses of Healing while the able men (under Aragorn's lead) ride to hopeless battle at the Morannon.

She is in love with Aragorn, possibly because he is a man who can, through his valour, bring her renown and honour (and a queendom.) We don't ever really get to know her, because T never wrote from her perspective: he showed her through the eyes of men: Aragorn, Theoden, Eomer, Merry, the Warden of the Houses of Healing, Faramir. We don't know what went on in her mind to cause the change; and, yes, people change. It was a very drastic, sudden change, yes.

Maybe Eowyn was acting like a willful child, stamping her feet and digging in her heels, then Faramir's love was like a slap that snapped her out of it, and made her realize what a brat she was being.
Kallahkallah on December 24th, 2003 02:49 pm (UTC)
She left Rohan because Theoden left her an impossible job by taking all the able-bodied men with him. While the Ents and Huorns took care of the Orcs, nobody seems to have mentioned this to her, and there were still all those Men who wanted the Rohirrim land. One raid, and Rohan is dead. This is mostly evidence of Tolkien's being a shit-awful strategist (witness sending women and children *out* of a walled, fortified, defended city out into unfortified hills crawling with Orcs).

She was never in love with Aragorn. The closest thing in the entire text to say so is the line about the army loving Aragorn, and I'm pretty damn sure Tolkien didn't mean the army had a romantic/sexual interest in Aragorn. The only reason to believe that is that Tolkien, outside the books, said so. The text sure as hell doesn't support that reading - there's nothing in there that even suggests it. Aragorn assumes it, but frankly he's jumping to a self-congratulatory conclusion from almost no evidence. I think it was, what, that she touched his hand and her hand trembled? Yeah, that's surefire proof of love there.

Eowyn has been badly used for years. Theoden and her brother abandon her to Wormtongue, and she's hardly more than Theoden's nursemaid. Of course she wants battle glory: she's a warrior. As Gandalf says, she has a spirit to match any warrior's, trapped in the body of a maid. Seeking death is better than being dishonored - whether by her own people or barbarian raiders.

Throwing all her skills away in a tantrum to marry some moron she just met is a lot more bratly than acting in accord with her people's values.
Sister Atom Bomb of Courteous Debateakiko on December 24th, 2003 03:23 pm (UTC)
She left Rohan secretly, and we'll never know her feelings; however Merry describes her face as "one that goes seeking death." She wants to die in battle. If she'd stayed at Dunharrow like she was told, she may well have had that chance, because she wouldn't have been on the Pelennor to slay the Witch-King, Gondor would have fallen, then the armies would have moved to Rohan. Frodo may have gotten the ring destroyed in time, but who knows, eh?

I don't feel like going downstairs (where my copy of the text is, my second copy having walked off somewhere,) so the Atlas will have to do for this part: I don't recall Dunharrow being "unfortified hills crawling with Orcs." That taking them all to Helm's Deep thing was Jackson's invention. There appears to be no wall; however, there are caves large enough for 3000 people. The Atlas does not specify whether the caverns have doors.

In my first response (the one LJ ate), I said she was in love with the ideal Aragorn represented: valour, honour, chivalry, bravery -- all those things girls don't get to do. Hero-worship, plain and simple, mistaken for love or one of its cousins.

How do you suppose that a princess marrying a prince is not "acting in accord with her people's values"? What "values" of her people do you mean, here?

Michael Martinez discusses Eowyn's weaponry training here: http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/49877 I'll paste the relevant bits

Eowyn is a different matter. Many people feel she was an unusual example among the women of Rohan, but I'm not so sure of that. She was a shieldmaiden, and Appendix A says there were many valiant men and women among the Rohirrim and their ancestors. Eowyn's battle with the Witch-king, where she lopped off the head of his winged steed with one stroke, and, despite suffering the great pain from her broken arm, subsequently dealt him a deft death-blow, clearly demonstrates she knew how to use a sword.

Eowyn's training as a shieldmaiden must therefore have been dictated by Theoden. But for what purpose? He had no queen and she had no hope of becoming either the captain of Theoden's guard or a Marshal of the Mark. Did Theoden foresee that war would come to Rohan in his time, and that it would be war of the most desperate kind which his people hadn't seen for generations? Yet, there is an incongruity between Eowyn's obvious martial education and the facts of the story presented in The Two Towers. Why didn't Theoden think of Eowyn when he needed to appoint someone to govern the people of Edoras when he rode to Helm's Deep?

It may be that Eowyn's education was more a matter of sport. That is, she may have been trained as a shieldmaiden as a way of helping to maintain the tradition of the shieldmaiden among the Rohirrim. If that was the case, there may have been few women like Eowyn in Theoden's time. Perhaps he was even reviving an ancient custom his people had not observed for generations.

http://www.dm.net/~theswan/kramer1.html has a feminist's response to Eowyn.