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04 April 2002 @ 01:06 pm
Sex between two women is unatural....  
says a bi friend of mine. *boggle* =)

She doesn't count it as being sex between two women unless there is some kind of penetration other than fingers.

So two girls can't have "sex" without external aid. Two guys or a guy and a girl locked in a bare room could have sex, but two girls couldn't. This sems kinda strange to me.

I'm guessing that this is not the only opinion on the matter. What exactly does constitue sex between two girls? Is it possible to draw a line between oral sex and sex as you can with other types of couples?

Update: We decided that a good definition (for bi people at least) was: "if one of the two of you had had a cock, would they have been fucking the other with it?"

However that's based mostly on feelings, not on any actual act. Which is fine i suppose, but i'm still curious if anyone has any other good physical or other definitons.

And this is for theSpark.com's Sex test, so the definition that gets settled on could have a drastic effect on a lot of people's future sex lives! ;)
Current Mood: curiouscurious
Sister Atom Bomb of Courteous Debateakiko on April 4th, 2002 01:16 pm (UTC)
That has got to be the weirdest thing I've ever heard.

Oral sex is a kind of sex. Manual stimulation is a kind of sex. Sex does not equal penile penetration; that is what intercourse (or copulation) is defined as. Maybe that's a clinical way of putting it, but I can't help it. I'm studying to be a clinician.
DonAithnendonaithnen on April 4th, 2002 01:22 pm (UTC)
Well yes, they're a kind of sex. However the question relates to TheSpark's Sex test, which asks how many people you've had sex with and how many people you've had oral sex with. A lot of purity tests will do the same thing, if they ask about sex, they mean "real sex," not just oral.

So is oral sex also real sex for lesbians?

She obviosuly wasn't limiting it to penile penetration, specifically she said "anything, penis, strap-on, whatever. not fingers. fingers don't count."
Sister Atom Bomb of Courteous Debateakiko on April 4th, 2002 01:27 pm (UTC)
Penile or pseudopenile, then, since fingers don't count. It sounds to me like this person has a hangup that sex == "insert tab a into slot b (or slot c)" and nothing I can think of will make any difference.
DonAithnendonaithnen on April 4th, 2002 01:33 pm (UTC)
Well it's not really her hang-up, if the test or whatever specifies a difference between "sex" and "oral sex" that which is what for lesbians?

But as i just updated above she was happy with the definition i came up with before.

Clearly some people feel more comfortable doing oral sex with someone than penetrative sex, so for such a person there must be certain women with whom they would feel comfortable performing oral sex but not anything more. The question is there really a "more" other than getting a strap-on that they wouldn't feel comfortable doing?
Jacqueline Russell-Terriertikva on April 4th, 2002 01:55 pm (UTC)
So would that make a dyke not into strap-ons a virgin? I've never had sex with a strap-on. I've had sex with six women. I think if you tried to tell them we didn't have sex, they'd be quite surprised.

As Susie Bright once said, "Penetration is about as heterosexual as kissing." It's the definition of phallocentric to assume that fucking must include a cock.
Sister Atom Bomb of Courteous Debateakiko on April 4th, 2002 02:19 pm (UTC)
That's pretty much what I was trying to say, but you managed to do it better :)
DonAithnendonaithnen on April 4th, 2002 02:31 pm (UTC)
Sigh, someone else who agrees with what i said, but that doesn't actually answer the question =)

This place is making a distinction between sex and oral sex for a hetrosexual or male-male couple. Is there a similar distinction between two acts or such for a girl-girl couple? Or do we just say that there is no way to distinguish between oral sex and "real sex" in such a case, and for the purpose of purity tests and such things you should just count all acts of oral sex as intercourse?

(Deleted comment)
DonAithnendonaithnen on April 4th, 2002 02:36 pm (UTC)
Well, you've come closer to answering the question than anyone else =)

So does that mean you think that for "oral sex" she should put every girl she's had oral sex with, and for "sex" every girl that she's fingered?
Leora: ouroborosleora on April 4th, 2002 03:41 pm (UTC)
Unnatural is always such a fun complaint. So many things are unnatural. Like having most children who are born live to grow up to adulthood. Horribly unnatural.
David Inacioznemesis on April 4th, 2002 03:57 pm (UTC)
or human beings being able to live for over 40 years. Horribly unnatural.
Patriciatrysha on April 4th, 2002 03:59 pm (UTC)
The big question is how to define virginity.

SOmeone who is Bi or a Lesbian who has never been with a boy.
I guess you have to then define types of virginity as well.

Labels are strange.
David Inacioznemesis on April 4th, 2002 04:10 pm (UTC)
I think the theSpark is phallocentric. It is confusing "sex" and "intercourse".

This reminds me of the plight of transsexuals who try and fill out politically correct surveys and forms. They ask your gender instead of what sex you are. However, for a transsexual person, gender and sex are not the same thing!

Here, theSpark is doing the same. It is confusing sex for intercourse. I believe sex can be almost anything two people want to call sex. There are so many fetishes in the world that seemingly innocent objects are now sexual. Intercourse, on the other hand, has a precise meaning.

So, to answer DonAithnen's question. Lesbians who never used phallic objects should put zero for "sex" and the appropiate number for "oral sex". Then they should ignore the result of the test and walk away knowing that they are better than the people who wrote the test, because they know how to have sex without phallic objects!

(I haven't seen a test yet that does not assume sex = intercourse. If that happens, then I should believe lesbians should put however many times they believe they had sex.)