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22 April 2004 @ 08:14 pm
Ha!  
Following is a list of words, in each case, if you were shorten the name to just one of the words, which would it be?


milk chocolate
dark chocolate
video game
board game
hand soap
bath soap
toothbrush
hair brush
baseball
baseball cap
blue jeans
wristwatch
headband

I could go on, but the point is pretty clear isn't it? adjective-noun, edjective-noun, etc. If you used the adjective part to refer to the word, no one would know what you were talking about. Would you like some dark for dessert? Did you hair your hair this morning?

so just two more...

soda water
soda pop

That is all.

(Yes, i'm biased, suck it =)
 
 
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rahvina on April 22nd, 2004 11:32 pm (UTC)
The main issue with the list is the inclusion of the word "headband." I've never heard it referred to as a "band." The other nouns do require another specifier if you're not using the adjective. For example: "Did you brush?" vs. "Did you brush your teeth/hair?" "Baseball" is, itself, the noun, unless you've already established what context you're in. "Ball" is not always interchangeable. Technically, the chocolate examples are a bit off too, since milk chocolate and dark chocolate are different things, although one DOES hear the word "chocolate" used to refer to milk chocolate, it is much less common for "chocolate" to refer to "dark chocolate." If a customer asked me for a "chocolate" bar at work, they'd get milk chocolate. If they want dark chocolate, they'll ask for it with both words.

And the soda water is what makes pop all fizzy... there is nothing actually called "pop" in carbonated beverages :) Technically, the "pop" part of "soda pop" is a verb, not a noun. So you'd be better off supporting your argument with adverb/verb combinations, or adjective/verbs that might also work as nouns. Or maybe adjective/onomatopoeia :-p

And I'll still call it a Coke. Unless I want a Sprite, or a Mountain Dew :)
Usquebausqueba on April 23rd, 2004 01:28 am (UTC)
Technically, the "pop" part of "soda pop" is a verb, not a noun.

In this instance "pop" IS a noun (it's one of the "natural and artificial flavors" mentioned ::G::). "Do you want some pop?" *I* don't say this but many people do (mostly from the East Coast, IME ::shrug::). There are TWO nouns. "Soda" and "pop".
rahvina on April 23rd, 2004 09:12 am (UTC)
What flavor is "pop"? The word, as a noun, in reference to carbonated soft drinks, referred to the action of the bubbles in the soft drink.

Also, according to most of the reading I've done, and most of the statistics I've seen, pop is more of a midwest/south thing than an East Coast thing. We refer to it as "soda," which was shortened from "soda water," which was put into the flavored syrups originally.
Usquebausqueba on April 23rd, 2004 10:56 am (UTC)
What flavor is "pop"?
Why, it's carmel color flavored, of course :D! Air's a noun. What does IT taste like? "It depends".

Also, according to most of the reading I've done, and most of the statistics I've seen, pop is more of a midwest/south thing than an East Coast thing.
All my info comes from people I know. I didn't do no readin'. I'd say 95% of the people I know from the East Coast call it "pop" ::shrug:: (New York, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island...).
DonAithnendonaithnen on April 23rd, 2004 02:37 am (UTC)
The main issue with the list is the inclusion of the word "headband."

That's the _main_ issue? So your other objections are mostly irelevant? :) So if you _had_ to choose a shortened name for some reason, you might refer to it as a "head"? :)

Baseball is a noun by itself, but i think the eytmology is pretty clear, and it's shortened to just "ball" all the time. No one ever says "Throw me the base" when refering to a baseball :) "Toothbrush" is single word as well, but no one is going to try to claim that a baseball isn't a ball, and a toothbrush isn't a brush, just because at some point in time a space got eliminated.

Technically, the chocolate examples are a bit off too, since milk chocolate and dark chocolate are different things, although one DOES hear the word "chocolate" used to refer to milk chocolate, it is much less common for "chocolate" to refer to "dark chocolate." If a customer asked me for a "chocolate" bar at work, they'd get milk chocolate. If they want dark chocolate, they'll ask for it with both words.

Yes they're different things, just like a hair brush and a toothbrush are different things, that's why we have those adjectives in front to distinguish them from one another =P

I refer to dark chocolate as "chocolate," all the time, as do many people i know. I have some chocolate in the kitchen right now. It happens to be dark chocolate, but if someone asked me "do you have any chocolate?" i would say "yes." I have a friend who is obsessed with chocolate, she says she loves chocolate, she almost always refers to it as chocolate, but 90% of the time what she buys is dark chocolate. The fact that the majority of the population prefers milk chocolate and you feel safe making the assumption that's what the average customer means by "chocolate," does not change the fact that dark chocolate is chocolate.

And the soda water is what makes pop all fizzy... there is nothing actually called "pop" in carbonated beverages :) Technically, the "pop" part of "soda pop" is a verb, not a noun. So you'd be better off supporting your argument with adverb/verb combinations, or adjective/verbs that might also work as nouns. Or maybe adjective/onomatopoeia :-p

And technically, there's no actual soda in carbonated beverages either :)

Also, technically, every reference i can find says that the term "pop" was introduced in 1861 to refer to soft drinks. No reference i've been able to find has specifically refered to the origins of the word phrase "soda pop."

I've found 19th century recipes for "Ginger Pop," (which wasn't always carbonated acording to some sources) and at some point there was also "Lemon Pop" as well (i've found one recipe for it from 1915, don't know if it went back to the 1860s like ginger pop) and possibly other kinds of pop as well.

It doesn't really matter if it's onomatopoeia or not. It was coined as a noun a hundred and forty years ago, it's still a noun today.
Kirin: jigenkirinn on April 23rd, 2004 08:41 am (UTC)
The main issue I Have is that I'm just going to declare derivation irrelevant to modern usage, thus discounting the entire argument in one fell swoop, and continue happily calling it "soda". ;)
rahvina on April 23rd, 2004 09:32 am (UTC)
I wouldn't choose a shortened name for a headband. I certainly wouldn't refer to it as a "band." It's too archaic sounding, reminiscent of the tune "Black Velvet Band." But even there it's a rhythmic device, and the words "black velvet" are always in front of it, and it's always established that it's her hair in the band. Which doesn't really shorten anything, as you then have to say "her hair was in the band." You wouldn't say "hand me that band" without any other qualifier and expect to be understood without SOME sort of clarification, even if it's gesturing.

Baseball is shortened to ball when it's obvious what you're talking about. At least in 95% of the cases I've seen it used in. Unless you're a kid, and even then, they tend to distinguish fairly often, but that's mostly by non-verbal cues.

Perhaps the chocolate thing is another East Coast/West Coast thing. Although when I've been to Europe, "chocolate" as a stand alone has also tended just to refer to the milk chocolate, and white chocolate and dark chocolate are very clearly specified. Dark and baker's chocolate especially, as they can produce strong allergic reactions.

Technically, there is soda in soft drinks. The term "soda water" was coined in 1798, after the combination of flavored syrups and carbonated water (originally made fizzy by adding sulfuric acid, what fun). That's what "soda" refers to... "soda water."

Pop still refers to the sound. From A History of the American Soft Drink Industry: bottled carbonated beverages, 1807-1957 by John J. Riley. Arno Press, 1972.: ""Pop" came, not from the composition of the product, but rather from the popping noise made when the gaseous pressure within the bottle was released, by removing the cork or other closure. The term has been generally associated with products on which the Hutchinson stopper or similar bottle closures were used, dating from about 1880."

Besides, a lot of your argument is problematic, as you're looking for consistency in the English language :) We beat up other languages, take their words and lunch money, and make up our own rules. Which we then break at will.

And now I'm going to go get a Coke. Or maybe some other type of cola.
Leora: ouroborosleora on April 23rd, 2004 02:56 pm (UTC)
I'm not clear on what your point is and the comments seem long and not necessarily enlightening.

I do have problems with soda pop, but that's just because I didn't grow up in a region that used the term. But in places that do, both of those items match your list.